The Dream Versus Reality of Amazon Japan

Paul Sonneveld
I am your host, Paul Sonneveld,  and today we're going to get a real understanding of what it's like to sell on Amazon Japan in 2024. I've invited Neil Curtis to join us and share his expertise with us today. Let me give him a quick intro. Neil is the founder and CEO of Rising Sun Commerce, a full-service Amazon Japan agency that helps English speaking brands really launch and grow in Japan, specializing specifically in Amazon listing optimization and advertising. 

Neil has a background in online marketing and search engine optimization and has built several niche affiliate websites that bring content in Google and earn commissions on promoted products from third party websites. Neil also has extensive experience in email marketing, where he managed several mailing lists related to websites and audience types. Neil, thank you so much for being on the show. Let me turn our question banner off. There we go. Thank you so much for being on the show, Neil. 

Neil Curtis
Yeah. Hey there.

Paul Sonneveld
Excellent. I've got to ask, I know you're in the UK or you're British, and we're talking about selling in Japan. So, I must, before we get, you know, because everyone will be wondering this, what is the backstory? How did you get involved with Amazon Japan?

Neil Curtis
Yep, you're right. So, I'm based in Hull in the UK, which is New Yorkshire. Basically, we got into Japan because I had my own Amazon private label brand, probably about 10 years ago, I started that called Kid Transit in the UK, and then across Europe. And then I think I heard on a podcast probably six years ago or so about selling in Japan. So I decided to take one of my best selling products from the UK and launch that in Japan. So, I teamed up with another guy who I knew, luckily he had just come back from Japan and he had a Japanese wife. So, they basically helped me get set up in Japan with my products translated and get selling. And this one SKU in Japan, and we, I think we sent a hundred, a thousand units over there and it did really well. 

It got to the bestseller and we basically ran out of stock and then we sent another thousand units and then yeah, kind of learned, learned how to do Amazon then and probably did that for a couple of years. And by going to events and speaking to people we basically help them with their products into Japan and that kind of kind of transitioned away from selling my own stuff in Japan to helping other people sell them that's kind of how the agency in Rising Sun Commerce kind of evolved probably about six years ago we set up Rising Sun Commerce and the last four years we've been helping people so that's kind of the back story and now we've got

Paul Sonneveld
And can I ask you, I'd love to know, what was it about, like, you know, if you go back to that original moment when you were launching your own brand, I think it was Kid Transit, right?

Neil Curtis
Yes, right.

Paul Sonneveld
Like, what was it about Japan you go, let's like, had you already mastered all the other Amazon markets that was the only one left? Or what was it that made you jump into Japan?

Neil Curtis
Well, as I said, I was listening to a podcast and I can't remember who it was talking about Amazon Japan and how it was the size of it, I think, at the time, it was the third biggest Amazon market, and it was growing. And, you know, it was kind of, I was sold the dream, I suppose, we're saying, you know, it's an untapped market, there's an opportunity, if you know, it's another way to add, revenue to the business without launching new products, because at the time. 

I think I got up to about 10 different SKUs. And I hadn't maximized the European market, but it was kind of, you know, with those 10 SKUs, could I kind of easily launching into the market and just bringing this extra revenue. So that's, that's why I did it. And I was always, I was kind of at the stage where I was always trying to, you know, always trying to grow. So it kind of seemed, I just wanted to test it out.

Paul Sonneveld
Was it like, you know, do I add more SKUs and sell on the same market or use what I have and go elsewhere?

Neil Curtis
Exactly.

Paul Sonneveld
Yeah. I mean, you mentioned size. I mean, actually I was doing some work on this for a completely different reason. But I was just looking at like total GMV for different Amazon markets. And, you know, depending on what exact year, I've got 2023 figures here, which technically still puts Japan as the second largest market with about, you know, 68 billion USD in terms of GMV.

Now probably depends a little bit on how the exchange rate's going and with various other things. I must admit like Germany and the UK are really neck on neck. And I think depending on what metric you look like, it's always those three that are kind of in the mix. So it's a really big market and I had appealed to you. 

But certainly from where I'm sitting, I see very few brands, and even agencies that say operate brands in the US or in Europe, and also managing an Amazon Japan account, right? So you've managed to achieve something that many others perhaps haven't tried or have did not achieve. So I want to sort of just go back to like, why do you think it is that people are not rushing into Amazon Japan, given the size of the market?

Neil Curtis
Yeah, I think, well, for U.S. sellers, Japan is big, but the U.S. is still 10 times the size of any other market. So probably the U.S. sellers are probably content in their market, but a lot of them are going to Europe. I think it's got to be the language and the culture. It just seems so different. And I think that puts most people off. And yeah, and that's the main things. And there are some compliance issues.

Japan can be quite strict and they like A lot of testing to be done in Japan. Sometimes they don't accept the international standards and testings. You need things done there. And it's just the whole customs and the whole language. I think that's what puts people off mainly. Yeah. So that's kind of why we did start the agency, because we knew there was a barrier to entry. And if we could help people, get over that barrier, then it's good for everyone.

Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, that makes sense. What else? I mean, let's talk about some of the differences, right? Obviously, the country is different, language is different. What else is different or perhaps unique in Amazon Japan versus maybe what people are used to in terms of the UK or the US? What are some of the differences maybe in terms of how consumers shop, how you market your products? What are some of the considerations there?

Neil Curtis
Yeah, well, you know, Amazon's Amazon. So I think the platform itself is very similar, and everything can be done in English. So, it's not a huge difference there. There are some differences, obviously, in the way you communicate, people in Japan communicate, and they're quite strict on reviews as well. So you're probably, more likely to get a negative review unless things are very good with your products. 

You've got to communicate in Japanese with the customers. So customer service is another barrier there. So things have to be done in Japanese. But in terms of setting up your listing, that's all exactly the same on different markets. You've got all the same marketing channels. You've got obviously the Amazon advertising, store pages, premium info content. 

You tend to get quite a lot of things early in Japan, which is good. Normally things come to the U.S. first, but then they seem to propagate to Japan and next a lot of the features which is good and there's a couple of and special things for Japan and for advertising purposes and you've got your coupons, you've got your deals, you've got promotions, but you've also got something called points, which is an extra thing that you can offer to customers. It's kind of like cashback or loyalty points.

So, if someone shops with you and you offer these, they can get Amazon sort of credit to spend on future purchases. That's another marketing channel. So, there's a lot of different combinations you can do. You can combine points with coupons or points with discounts, and you can do a lot of different testing for marketing. But yeah, and you know, in general, it's very similar to other marketplaces, obviously, keyword research and the way things are written. You can write whole paragraphs without spaces, so it's quite difficult to integrate keywords and some of the phrases. 

You can do your keyword research, get hundreds of keywords, and in English it's relatively simple to use them and split them out, but in Japan it's difficult. You can't just split phrases out and put parts here, parts there, so the keyword integration is more difficult. So, it's kind of things like that. So it's really important to do use native Japanese people, ideally, people with Amazon experience to do the writing, you can't just Google Translate or chat, even chat GPT or something like that. It doesn't, it's not good enough for Japan.

Paul Sonneveld
Yeah. So how have you saw from an agency point of view, how have you solved that particular challenge then? Like how have you set yourself up internally in order to serve customers and do that and do it well?

Neil Curtis
Yeah, well, so our team is we've got two of us in the UK, one in the US, and we've got three people in Japan. And obviously, the Japanese people do all the Japan-related stuff. And they've been with us for a long time. So, they understand how to do that. And yeah, and we just do the keyword research, we can use tools such as Helium 10. And for example to kind of understand the keywords and you've got to take the estimated search volumes etc. with a you know pinch of salt but you can kind of get understand all the main keywords and we do a lot of research for the competitors and we read their listings understand what terms and phrases they're using. 

And how we normally work is we normally take because we work with English brand we have English speaking sellers go to Japan so we always do things in English first and then we pass them over to the Japanese team who translate and keyword integrate. And yeah, and they just try and restructure the sentences because the whole structures of sentences and paragraphs is completely different.

So they try and restructure things, get as many keywords in as possible. But then we have to rely on filling out the descriptions to get as many keywords in as possible for their for ranking purposes. And the alt text and images for the when you put, when you load A plus, trying to fit keywords in, obviously the backend search terms. So we might not be able to get in as many keywords in the actual title and bullets as you might do with the English copy, because it's quite difficult. But we kind of get as many as we can and make sure we do it elsewhere.

Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, no, that makes sense. So, I understand the text element. What about the visual element, even images, video, brand stores, A-plus content? Other things, I guess I've split into two questions. Are there things that are mechanically different? Because maybe they're not, right? Maybe it's just one platform. But also, are there any considerations really from a consumer point of view and how the Japanese consumer buys products that you'd change it, like you wouldn't just take, well, I could, let me rephrase it again, could you just take all your assets from the US and load them into Japan? Or would you apply some sort of transformation to meet market requirements?

Neil Curtis
Yeah, no, I think definitely when you're getting started, it's fine to use as long as you see US images or UK images, or whatever, are really good quality images. And, you know, because you know, how important the images are to visualize the product, as long as they're good, and it is fine to use them. There may be some products where it might be better to have a Japanese person, maybe if you're selling clothes, um, or jewelry, you might want to on a Japanese person to show it off. 

Although Japanese people, while they do like the Japanese products, they also do like international brands. I mean, a UK brands, if they're trustworthy and you trust them, then if you're, you can kind of play on that. And we've got a couple of clients that do play on that. So then. having English-style images is fine, as long as the text is in Japanese, because something like 90% of Japanese people can't speak English, so you can't just have English text everywhere. 

So you've got to have your text and your images in Japanese, and also your videos. So we sometimes use see a US image of it. I mean, a video is a good video, but we do professional voiceovers in Japanese. And or sometimes we we've got some people we can do specialist native Japanese or unboxing explainer videos in Japanese to put on the listing. So we do those as well, because, you know, video tells a million ways you can watch a video and see the product and hear a Japanese person talk about it. It's much better. But it's just kind of the stuff you would do normally in your home markets. But, you know, you do it again in Japan. You don't try and cut corners by just using your words and your images and things like that.

Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, no, that makes sense. Although, I do appreciate your pragmatics tier as well, because it's not like, oh, everything has to be customized. You can start, with your US-based or your images from the US or UK store, presumably, they're good. And then we just build from there, right? And tweak and enhance and localize where it makes sense. 

No, that really makes sense to me. Now, you did mention sort of talk, we're talking a little about brands and brands recognition and about, you know, if you're an internationally recognized brand, that's great. And Japanese consumers are very open to it. But what if your brand is not that well-known in Japan? All right. 

Neil Curtis
Yeah.

Paul Sonneveld
This issue around brand awareness. If my brand doesn't, is not known in Japan, should I perhaps forgo the opportunity or how do I overcome that challenge?

Neil Curtis
Yeah, well, Yeah, that's a good point. So most, probably 99% of people go to Japan, you know, people in Japan have never heard of them. So, you know, they may do tens of millions of dollars say on amazon.com, but a big portion of that might be from branded search. They've got an established website, social media, maybe off Amazon marketing, Facebook ads, whatever, but they come to Japan and there's none of that. 

So, you know, you can be a Japanese-only brand, of course. And if you are going to do that, the first thing to do is make sure your listing is as good as it physically can be. But then you just got to play the Amazon game, right? You've got to compete on the same keywords, and push, use the advertising to drive the awareness, and just try and hope you're going to rank and build that. 

So you've got to remember that a lot of the Japanese sellers, so you mentioned before, there's not that many international, there is Chinese, because obviously, China's a lot closer. And Japan so there are quite a lot of Chinese sellers but there's a lot of Japanese sellers as well so quite a lot of them will have off-Amazon awareness so they will have the advantage over you if you're a new seller and in that they're getting branded searches driving up Amazon traffic. 

So you've got to compete with that so what we normally do is you know new clients normally launch and you do try and compete you know you try and understand, How do we convert on these search terms? Are we generating enough sales? Can we get the rank going to do the sales we want? But if that doesn't happen, what normally happens is you normally see growth and then it kind of plateaus a bit. a normal level. And unless you do a lot of promotions and discounts, you're going to kind of stay at that level. And then you might have to look off Amazon to build some kind of awareness. 

And we always recommend having at least a simple branded website. So people.jp website, so people Google you, they'll find you at least have some trust there. And you can just send people back to Amazon from the website, don't have to have Shopify or anything. And then and then you can do stuff like Facebook ads, Google ads, or some maybe some influencer marketing just to build some awareness. 

And if you don't want to really go all in with Amazon, because we know what it's like, you are just competing for the same real estate on Amazon as every other seller. And I don't know if it's worth talking about this. But in terms of search terms, and you do, if you don't, if you want to do some really good volume in sales, you've got to compete on the main short search terms because the longer tail search terms so in the US for example and you can probably do good volume by competing on the more niche longer term searches in Amazon.

So you might want to see if you sell I don't know disposable gloves if you might you might not want to compete directly on the pretend disposable gloves because that's so general and everyone's competing on that but you might search for you know, black disposable gloves for car mechanics or something. And in the US, there might be enough search volume for that. They do good sales. You can dominate all the searches around there. 

But in Japan, you can't rely on those long-tail search terms to drive good volume in sales. You'll do some sales, but there's not enough volume there. You've got to come back to the short tail. So, if you've got no other awareness, you do have to be able to compete and convert well enough and have enough budget to compete on the shorter terms if you really want to do good sales. there probably will come a point where you have to consider off Amazon marketing in Japan to do well.

Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, I wanted to sort of ask two follow-up questions there is one was around, you know, what, you know, there'll be a different answer for each keyword. But in general, like CPC cost in Japan compared to what sellers might be used to say in the UK or in the US, you know, how does that compare? And then my second question was more around sort of, you know, programmatic advertising or, you know, DSP, where is that in terms of adoption lifecycle in Japan in terms of sellers and vendors using those more advanced tools? But yeah, let's start with the CPC question first.

Neil Curtis
Yeah, well, currently, I don't know what it is. But when I remember when I did the Kid Transit about six years ago, it was cheaper in Japan. And but things I think, like in every market, it is picking up. So it will be, it will be less than what it is in the US. But then, but then the rewards, obviously the less, you can't pay the price you would pay in the US because obviously the return on the sales wouldn't be the same, but it is lower than it would in the US, but I haven't got any direct comparisons. I can't really talk about that. 

In terms of DSP, we don't use that, but if we just focus on the kind of Amazon Ads Console and the Sponsored Display, they have got all the audience targeting and retargeting and all that kind of things available and doing, custom image ads and video ads and sort of higher funnel. And you can, Amazon can show it to us off Amazon's or websites and things as well as on Amazon audience. So that is there. And we do use that, but we don't actually use the the DSP side of it.

Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, I understand. I'm curious also to ask you about fulfillment, right? FBA network, particularly getting stock into Japan. I'm assuming shipping directly from China to Japan, if you're sourcing there is probably a good option. But in terms of Japan's fulfillment network, and also I think the fees, right, because the increases in fees whether it's an inbound convenience fee or storage fee or certainly the pressure has increased quite significantly on the fulfillment and shipping costs side, particularly in the US. Yeah, paint us a picture of what are you seeing in Japan? Are sellers being hit with the same fees there? Or is the situation different?

Neil Curtis
No, it's much the same. And it's a little bit more complicated because they've got something called consumption tax, which is the same as VAT or something like that. But obviously, as a seller, it's unlikely that you're going to be registered in Japan for consumption tax. So, when you ship things into Japan, actually, at the point of customs they take, a 10% extra fee or the charge for that. And they basically take that from the retail selling price that you're going to sell it at. So that's extra fees there. 

And yeah, and you have to have what's called an important record and also an attorney or something, I can't remember what the exact term is. So, you have to have someone physically in Japan that's going to take ownership and responsibility for your products once they get there. So these are extra fees and logistics companies or storage companies in Japan can do that for you. And normally what happens is you have to put this other company, you have to import reco's name and all the documents so they're going to be shipped to them. They have to go to their warehouses normally and get relabeled up and sent to Amazon. 

So, there are these extra costs involved and you have to be aware of that and sometimes during customs, there can be issues with inspections and you get hit with these extra inspections. And if there's any kind of problems, so say you're selling a product that needs specialist documents. So, it's always important to understand the compliance and what documents you need before you just ship something there. Because if it gets held up, it can get stored at customs and they, you know, they can charge a fortune. 

So there's all these extra things to consider with Japan. So, so if anyone's thinking about it, it's always, make sure, speak to the specialist. And if you want to reach out to me, I can send you some people to see if you need any special documents, who can actually import the record and get all that. But in terms of Amazon side, once it's in there, the fee structure and the storage, those are kind of the same as it is.

Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, very similar. Yeah, that makes sense. I was going to, you touched on compliance there, and that's usually a big topic because of different regulatory frameworks and the like. How would you characterize the level of compliance requirements in Japan versus what sellers might be used to? Easier? Harder? the same certain categories, we'll watch out, what has tripped you up? And what has been surprisingly easy over the years?

Neil Curtis
Yeah, well, we've had a few listings, Easter, because Amazon's always changing its policies, right. And we've had some brands been working with for you know, three or four years, and they've been selling for a long time. And suddenly the listing goes inactive, and product detail page removed. And we've had Amazon doesn't tell you why, because you know what Amazon's like, and we've had back and forwards. And we've got people in Japan, so we can bring them up. And then we found out that we've had a few electronics products that's needed some special documents, you have to have all sorts of, and records from the manufacturer to show the batch of products that was created and sent to Amazon. Have you got all these inspection reports for them and different kinds of ratings and stuff. 

And the products, depending on what products you've got, some of them have to have Japanese labels on the packaging. So, if you sell supplements, for example, or anything that goes in the mouth, the important ingredients and warnings have to be in Japanese on the packaging. So, things like that. Have kind of tripped us up in the past and it can be quite a long delay because obviously you've got to get all the documents together submitting to Amazon all the time your listings are down so it's good to try and understand all of this before you take the plunge. 

And yeah and kind of similar to that is what you can say on your listings it's a little bit of a tangent but it's a bit different definitely to the US in terms of that the US almost seems like the wild west still what you can get away with on the listings what claims, but basically in Japan, especially if it's medical related, you can't say anything subjective. You can't just, I don't know. So if you sell a vitamin, you can't say, I don't know, helps restore hair or whatever. You can't say that Amazon Japan will flag you and pull your listing unless you've got official testing that backs everything up. 

So if you are selling supplements or anything really, and you've got claims, claims it does this, claims it does that, claims it does this, you probably have to find you have to strip it right back and just stick to the facts. This is this supplement with these ingredients. And so that's another thing to consider. You can't just set your listing up. You can't just take a US listing in a lot of cases, if it has got a lot of these subjective. Yeah, you can't take it up there. And months down the line, you'll be working with Amazon to try and

Paul Sonneveld
Yeah. Does that extend to your, your product labeling as well? I'm talking about like the actual packaging and the data on the physical product.

Neil Curtis
Yeah. Yeah. So like I said, if you've got any, it depends what product it is, but supplements, for example, you're going to have to have it. If you're selling FBA, you can do cross border so you can ship in from Hong Kong or something, and it can be in English, but if you do an FBA and Amazon are going to take into their warehouses in Japan, the labels for these products, got to be in Japanese ingredients warnings. 

If it's like my product, my Kid Transit, which is basically a car seat protector, a bit of plastic, that's fine. If it's in English, it doesn't have to be Japanese. But if it's something, you know, with important stuff, you put it if you can put in your mouth or some electronics with some, yeah, it's got to be in. And yeah, and also the wording, like I said before, so we work with, it was basically a scar cream. It's basically a cream you put in scars to help scars fade. It was called scar cream. And that was the name of the product. And that was their main, obviously, their product images had that on it. And Amazon refused to list it. 

They said you can't use the word scar on your packaging because it's kind of implying that to treat scars, unless you've got, you can submit all these documents, all this testing probably done in Japan that proves it. Helps scars, helps relieve scars, you can't use that. So they couldn't even put the word scar in their packaging, even though the product was physically called scar cream. So, there's those kind of considerations to take into account.

Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, that certainly highlights to me that one should really do their homework, particularly if you're in more of those high-risk categories there. Well, look, I think to so just to kind of draw to a close here, I thought maybe you could just share with us, we touched on some of these already, but for those there might be agencies that are listening to this going, right. 

I've got a couple of clients that I want to take to Japan or there might be brands themselves. I mean, what are the I call it like the pitfalls and banana skins, right? So, what are the three or four things you just want to give the counsel on to say, look, guys, really watch out for this. Don't do this. And save them some real headache and pain down the road.

Neil Curtis
Yeah, I suppose one is, it's not always a variable, but one is check out Amazon Japan, are there similar products selling there? And are they selling in good volume? Are these, you know, competitors, if you did launch or similar products, are they doing good volume? Is there just do a quick asset test? Is there is a demand for the product? I'm sure there will be because, you know, most of the products are selling to the market so well in Japan, but it's always good to see other people selling in high quantity. So that's one thing. 

The other thing is, it's always good, even if you think it's fine, always speak or check about compliance. So it could just be a couple of email exchanges with someone. Again, if you want, I can share these later on. And just say, look, this is my product. Do you think I need special compliance? And make sure that's sorted out beforehand because the last thing you want to do is send it and get it held up in customs, because that can be expensive. Yeah, and that's it. 

And then the other thing is, make sure your listing's good. Well, you've always got to have your because customs look at your listing to understand if it's selling and what its sale price is. Your listing has to be set up on Amazon Japan before it reaches customs. So the first time you ship something across, you have to have your listings already set up. And when you do set your listings up, just make sure they're done well. Don't cut corners on your actual listing. Get them professionally translated at the very least. So, if a Japanese person is reading it, it doesn't look like, Google Translate because, you know, trust is a big thing and you don't want to waste money on ads if your conversion rates are going to go down because the listening isn't good.

Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, yeah. The wrong word in the wrong place just kills off trust, right? Because people smell, they smell something.

Neil Curtis
And with Google Translate, it can mean something completely different. It might not even be the right thing. It might not make sense. 

*(both laugh)*

Paul Sonneveld
Just because people tell you this is what it means, it doesn't actually be true, right? 

Neil Curtis
Yeah. But just quickly, because I know we're short of time, but we've had people come to us and we've got Shiori, our main editor in Japan, and she's read over these listings and she went, it's difficult to me to understand what the product is from these bullets because it's obviously not written by it. So it's, yeah, get that set up.

Paul Sonneveld
It doesn't come together. It doesn't paint a picture of my head. It's just words. Yeah. Look, absolutely. Look, I'm sure there are people watching this either live or on demand afterwards, and they go, well, maybe I should just get in touch with Neil, or at least I'd love to get in touch just to clarify some things or get a few pointers out of you, or maybe just run a particular use case past you. I'm assuming you're open to this. What's the best way for people to get a hold of you?

Neil Curtis
Yeah, well, you can just go to the website risingsuncommerce.com. And there's a contact page on there. Or my email is just nc@risingstonecommerce.co.uk. Exactly. That's the email address there. Or just on LinkedIn, just find me on LinkedIn. And yep, let me know and happy just to chat about stuff. Even if it's a very early stage and just some questions, or you want an introduction to someone that can help with compliance issues or logistics. I'm happy to share these details with you.

Paul Sonneveld
That's fantastic. Look, I think my key takeaway here in this whole conversation is around do your homework up front before you get too enthusiastic and launch into it. And certainly, tapping into your expertise to make sure that you do all the right due diligence, whether it's around how you get yourself set up, translation, freight, inbound duties, everything certainly worth doing. So thank you so much for being with us today, Neil. It's been really great. I like the fact that you've built this really specialized niche business, really helping people unlock, you know, what is arguably the second or third largest Amazon market. So, thank you so much for coming on the show and look forward to continuing this conversation some other time. 

Neil Curtis
Yeah, no. Thanks a lot, Paul. 

Paul Sonneveld
Take care. 

Neil Curtis
See you Later. Bye.

Paul Sonneveld
All right, everyone. That is it for today's live episode of Marketplace Masters focusing on expansion to Japan. I hope you enjoyed this particular topic. If you are looking for more, feel free to go and check out our website, merchantspring.io, where we have a whole range of on-demand webinars, free of charge, where you can educate yourself on all sorts of Amazon Vendor or Agency Best Practice topics. 

Now, of course, if you are in the market for Amazon Analytics as an agency in terms of client reporting or as a vendor, make sure to check us out. We do support Amazon Japan. So feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn or book some time in my calendar via our website. And last but not least, if there are topics that you're really curious about that we haven't covered yet on this podcast, please let me know. I'm always looking out. For interesting topics that really add value to your agency, to your Amazon business. So please let me know, and I will do my best to find a great speaker. All right. Until next time, stay safe, take care. See you then. Bye-bye.